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Who Defines What Is Racist?,Students demand firing of Evergreen State professor.
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a425couple
2017-06-01 16:08:42 UTC
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Who Defines What Is Racist?
Students demand firing of Evergreen State professor.
Police chief urges him to stay off campus for his safety.
Supporters say he’s the one upholding principles of equity.
By Scott Jaschik
May 30, 2017

In the heated debates of campus politics these days, it is not unusual
for some groups (on or off campus) to demand the firing of a faculty
member. But the rancor at Evergreen State College over the last week
stands out. There, a professor whom some students want fired was told by
the campus police chief that, out of concern for his safety, he should
stay off campus for a few days. He did, teaching a class nearby in
Olympia, Wash., and is not sure when he can return to campus.
The professor's critics say he's racist, and groups of students have
been holding demonstrations -- sometimes turning into marches across
campus and impromptu searches for the professor. They have been chanting
that racist professors must be fired. Bret Weinstein (right), a biology
professor, is the main target and is the faculty member who moved his
class off campus. "Fire Bret" graffiti is visible on campus. But
students are also demanding the dismissals of one or more police
officers, that the campus police sell off all of its weapons and various
other policy changes.
The debate over Weinstein has become particularly intense. He and his
supporters say that he's not a racist and is standing up for principles
of equity. The president of Evergreen State, George Bridges, says
Weinstein's job is not in danger. But Weinstein says Bridges has not
taken the kind of public stand that is required when a professor's right
to speak out is under attack. Weinstein's student critics, meanwhile,
say his public defense is shifting attention away from their grievances.
Why is Weinstein so controversial?
He has spoken out on two campus issues, in both cases taking positions
he maintains were opposing racism.
‘Day of Absence’
One involved a campus tradition called Day of Absence, which is based on
a 1965 play by that name by Douglas Turner Ward. The play is about an
imaginary Southern town in which all the black people disappear one day.
The idea behind the play is that societies with deeply racist ideas in
fact depend on the very people they subjugate. The play is in some sense
the inspiration for events like this year's national Day Without Immigrants.
For many years at Evergreen State, minority students and faculty members
have observed a Day of Absence in which they meet off campus to discuss
campus issues and how to make the college more supportive of all
students. Later a Day of Presence reunites various campus groups.
Weinstein said he's been aware of the tradition for some time, and never
objected to it. But this year, organizers said that on the Day of
Absence, they wanted white people to stay off campus. Weinstein opposed
this shift, and he posted a message on a campus email list in which he
objected to the proposal to ask white people to stay off campus.
"There is a huge difference between a group or coalition deciding to
voluntarily absent themselves from a shared space in order to highlight
their vital and underappreciated roles (the theme of the Douglas Turner
Ward play Day of Absence, as well as the recent Women's Day walkout),
and a group encouraging another group to go away," Weinstein wrote. "The
first is a forceful call to consciousness, which is, of course,
crippling to the logic of oppression. The second is a show of force, and
an act of oppression in and of itself."
Weinstein went on to say he would be on campus on the Day of Absence and
would encourage a similar stance by white people being asked to stay
away. People should "put phenotype aside," he said. "On a college
campus, one's right to speak -- or to be -- must never be based on skin
color."
That email is one of the reasons Weinstein is being called racist, with
students saying his tone belittled the people behind the idea of having
a Day of Absence without white people on campus. The other reason cited
against Weinstein is that he has come out against a recommendation on
faculty hiring by the college's Equity and Inclusion Council. That
recommendation, currently under consideration by college leaders, would
require an "equity justification/explanation" for all faculty hires.
In an interview, Weinstein said he believes that there are many things
colleges can and should do to attract diverse candidates for faculty
jobs. But he said the proposal at Evergreen State "subordinates all
other characteristics of applicants to one thing." He said that in the
sciences, for example, the rationale for faculty positions is to teach
science, not to promote equity or diversity. "The most important thing
is that the person in front of the room knows something about the
subject and has insight in teaching," he said.
Weinstein said he has been stunned to have been shouted at on campus,
and to be told that he needs to leave campus because of two positions he
took on policy issues. These positions, he stressed, come from his view
that all people are equal. And while he said he doesn't believe everyone
has to agree with him, he doesn't believe his views should make him a
target for being fired -- or for threats to his well-being.
"These students are engaged in a show of force," Weinstein said. "In
order for this show of force to look to the outside world as reasonable,
there cannot be a diversity of opinion about the issues."
Many of Weinstein's students -- including minority students -- have
taken to social media to say that he is a kind and thoughtful teacher
and has been supportive of those enrolled in his courses, including
minority students.
The Stakes for Students
The student protest movement includes several coalitions, and leaders
were not reachable over the weekend. But many have been posting to
social media to offer their perspective. Many on Facebook and Twitter
(and in videos of various events on campus) are criticizing sympathetic
posts about Weinstein on social media and in conservative press outlets.
They have noted the fatal attack on two men in Portland, Ore., Friday --
men who were trying to prevent another man from continuing anti-Muslim
invective against two women -- as evidence that minority individuals are
the ones in danger in society today.
Many of these posts accuse Weinstein of not understanding the stakes for
minority students.
One student wrote on Facebook that she was "so dismayed at the professor
who is putting his job security ahead of the safety of the students
(particularly those who are visibly of color, queer, trans, nonbinary,
disabled, etc.) on our campus. And when I say safety, I am not referring
to someone's feelings getting hurt. I'm referring to the very real, very
close neo-Nazi/white
supremacist/alt-right/whatever-you-wanna-call-white-people-who-think-non-white-people-should-die
presence in the Pacific Northwest. The same presence which resulted in
two deaths in Portland on public transit, in broad daylight, with
witnesses, yesterday. Student protesters did not take hostages. Student
protesters were not violent. Student protesters did not demand to search
vehicles. Student protesters have not taken over the campus. I was
there. Were they loud? Yes. Were they angry? Yes. Were they 100 percent
a unified and thoroughly organized front? No. That's how this stuff
works. Change is messy and loud and confusing and uncomfortable and
long, long, long overdue."
Many of the comments on social media by people off campus have said that
they don't find Weinstein's objections to the Day of Absence to be
racist. As a result, supporters of the Evergreen State students have
been making the case that he was wrong to question the new approach to
Day of Absence.
One online post said, "That is not an act of oppression, Bret. Part of
dismantling white supremacy is giving up white spaces to people of
color; it's part of the healing process. And again, I don't think there
was anything requiring Bret to participate …. I guess the real issue
with reversing the traditional 'who leaves campus' roles is that POC
[people of color] on campus won't object to a day without all the
annoying white people around and will gladly leave, while white folks
will object and throw temper tantrums at the mere suggestion that they
give up their traditional space for just one day."
‘The Right to Say What He Wants’
Bridges (right), the president of Evergreen State, said in an interview
Friday that it was important to remember that the Day of Absence was
voluntary, and that no white people were forced to participate. He also
said he believed that the campus was safe, and that there was a mistaken
assumption among many that the protesters were in control of the campus.
Bridges said that Weinstein's right to speak out has never been
threatened and that his job is not in danger. "He has the right to say
what he wants," Bridges said. (Evergreen State does not have a
traditional tenure system but does have a similar system under which
Weinstein is covered.)
In a meeting with students late Friday, Bridges rejected demands that
Weinstein and some police officers be fired, saying that the college
does not respond to demands that employees be fired. But he announced a
number of steps that the college was taking, and he repeatedly praised
the protest movement. Among the changes he announced:
The start of mandatory diversity and cultural sensitivity training for
all faculty members. (This measure was adopted with the agreement of the
faculty union.)
The creation of an equity/multicultural center.
The hiring of a vice president or vice provost who will focus on equity
and diversity issues. (The search for this position had already been
started.)
Adoption of a new policy where every official event at the college will
start with an acknowledgment that Evergreen State is on land stolen from
Native Americans.
On Saturday, Bridges posted a statement in which he said it was
important for the college to make students feel secure and for faculty
members to feel that their rights to free expression were respected.
"Some students on campus experience racism that interferes with their
education. Others, including faculty, believe their freedom of
expression is being restricted," Bridges wrote. "These are important
issues. Discrimination of any form is not acceptable or tolerated on our
campus. Free speech must be fostered and encouraged. We are an
institution dedicated to learning. We must treat each other with respect
and care. Every faculty member, student and staff member must have the
freedom to speak openly about their views."
Bridges went on to say, "We may disagree with each other. However,
disagreement is one thing; dehumanization is another. Over the week, a
few members of the Evergreen community have used traditional and social
media to malign, mock or misrepresent those with whom they disagree.
While the majority of students, faculty and staff are fully engaged in
the teaching and learning work of the college, a few are on a
destructive course of action that hurts themselves and gives a distorted
and false impression of our community."
Both the student protest movement and Weinstein and his supporters say
they have been maligned in ways such as those Bridges cited. The
president did not include any names in his statement.
Weinstein said via email that the statement does not reassure him.
"The president's carefully crafted statement is clearly intended to
support a false narrative about the present state of our campus, and the
extraordinary events of this past week," he said. "No one at the college
has yet acknowledged that I and my students were specifically followed,
harassed and doxed. If it is now safe to return, it is only because the
intimidation campaign against us backfired so spectacularly and has now
been called off as a matter of PR damage control."
Read more by Scott Jaschik

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/05/30/escalating-debate-race-evergreen-state-students-demand-firing-professor
a425couple
2017-06-01 17:05:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Who Defines What Is Racist?
Students demand firing of Evergreen State professor.
Police chief urges him to stay off campus for his safety.
Supporters say he’s the one upholding principles of equity.
By Scott Jaschik
May 30, 2017
In the heated debates of campus politics these days, it is not unusual
for some groups (on or off campus) to demand the firing of a faculty
member. But the rancor at Evergreen State College over the last week
stands out. There, a professor whom some students want fired was told by
the campus police chief that, out of concern for his safety, he should
stay off campus for a few days. He did, teaching a class nearby in
Olympia, Wash., and is not sure when he can return to campus.
The professor's critics say he's racist, and groups of students have
been holding demonstrations -- sometimes turning into marches across
campus and impromptu searches for the professor. They have been chanting
that racist professors must be fired. Bret Weinstein (right), a biology
professor, is the main target and is the faculty member who moved his
class off campus. "Fire Bret" graffiti is visible on campus. But
students are also demanding the dismissals of one or more police
officers, that the campus police sell off all of its weapons and various
other policy changes.
The debate over Weinstein has become particularly intense. He and his
supporters say that he's not a racist and is standing up for principles
of equity. The president of Evergreen State, George Bridges, says
Weinstein's job is not in danger. But Weinstein says Bridges has not
taken the kind of public stand that is required when a professor's right
to speak out is under attack. Weinstein's student critics, meanwhile,
say his public defense is shifting attention away from their grievances.
Why is Weinstein so controversial?
He has spoken out on two campus issues, in both cases taking positions
he maintains were opposing racism.
‘Day of Absence’
One involved a campus tradition called Day of Absence, which is based on
a 1965 play by that name by Douglas Turner Ward. The play is about an
imaginary Southern town in which all the black people disappear one day.
The idea behind the play is that societies with deeply racist ideas in
fact depend on the very people they subjugate. The play is in some sense
the inspiration for events like this year's national Day Without Immigrants.
For many years at Evergreen State, minority students and faculty members
have observed a Day of Absence in which they meet off campus to discuss
campus issues and how to make the college more supportive of all
students. Later a Day of Presence reunites various campus groups.
Weinstein said he's been aware of the tradition for some time, and never
objected to it. But this year, organizers said that on the Day of
Absence, they wanted white people to stay off campus. Weinstein opposed
this shift, and he posted a message on a campus email list in which he
objected to the proposal to ask white people to stay off campus.
"There is a huge difference between a group or coalition deciding to
voluntarily absent themselves from a shared space in order to highlight
their vital and underappreciated roles (the theme of the Douglas Turner
Ward play Day of Absence, as well as the recent Women's Day walkout),
and a group encouraging another group to go away," Weinstein wrote. "The
first is a forceful call to consciousness, which is, of course,
crippling to the logic of oppression. The second is a show of force, and
an act of oppression in and of itself."
Weinstein went on to say he would be on campus on the Day of Absence and
would encourage a similar stance by white people being asked to stay
away. People should "put phenotype aside," he said. "On a college
campus, one's right to speak -- or to be -- must never be based on skin
color."
That email is one of the reasons Weinstein is being called racist, with
students saying his tone belittled the people behind the idea of having
a Day of Absence without white people on campus. The other reason cited
against Weinstein is that he has come out against a recommendation on
faculty hiring by the college's Equity and Inclusion Council. That
recommendation, currently under consideration by college leaders, would
require an "equity justification/explanation" for all faculty hires.
In an interview, Weinstein said he believes that there are many things
colleges can and should do to attract diverse candidates for faculty
jobs. But he said the proposal at Evergreen State "subordinates all
other characteristics of applicants to one thing." He said that in the
sciences, for example, the rationale for faculty positions is to teach
science, not to promote equity or diversity. "The most important thing
is that the person in front of the room knows something about the
subject and has insight in teaching," he said.
Weinstein said he has been stunned to have been shouted at on campus,
and to be told that he needs to leave campus because of two positions he
took on policy issues. These positions, he stressed, come from his view
that all people are equal. And while he said he doesn't believe everyone
has to agree with him, he doesn't believe his views should make him a
target for being fired -- or for threats to his well-being.
"These students are engaged in a show of force," Weinstein said. "In
order for this show of force to look to the outside world as reasonable,
there cannot be a diversity of opinion about the issues."
Many of Weinstein's students -- including minority students -- have
taken to social media to say that he is a kind and thoughtful teacher
and has been supportive of those enrolled in his courses, including
minority students.
The Stakes for Students
The student protest movement includes several coalitions, and leaders
were not reachable over the weekend. But many have been posting to
social media to offer their perspective. Many on Facebook and Twitter
(and in videos of various events on campus) are criticizing sympathetic
posts about Weinstein on social media and in conservative press outlets.
They have noted the fatal attack on two men in Portland, Ore., Friday --
men who were trying to prevent another man from continuing anti-Muslim
invective against two women -- as evidence that minority individuals are
the ones in danger in society today.
Many of these posts accuse Weinstein of not understanding the stakes for
minority students.
One student wrote on Facebook that she was "so dismayed at the professor
who is putting his job security ahead of the safety of the students
(particularly those who are visibly of color, queer, trans, nonbinary,
disabled, etc.) on our campus. And when I say safety, I am not referring
to someone's feelings getting hurt. I'm referring to the very real, very
close neo-Nazi/white
supremacist/alt-right/whatever-you-wanna-call-white-people-who-think-non-white-people-should-die
presence in the Pacific Northwest. The same presence which resulted in
two deaths in Portland on public transit, in broad daylight, with
witnesses, yesterday. Student protesters did not take hostages. Student
protesters were not violent. Student protesters did not demand to search
vehicles. Student protesters have not taken over the campus. I was
there. Were they loud? Yes. Were they angry? Yes. Were they 100 percent
a unified and thoroughly organized front? No. That's how this stuff
works. Change is messy and loud and confusing and uncomfortable and
long, long, long overdue."
Many of the comments on social media by people off campus have said that
they don't find Weinstein's objections to the Day of Absence to be
racist. As a result, supporters of the Evergreen State students have
been making the case that he was wrong to question the new approach to
Day of Absence.
One online post said, "That is not an act of oppression, Bret. Part of
dismantling white supremacy is giving up white spaces to people of
color; it's part of the healing process. And again, I don't think there
was anything requiring Bret to participate …. I guess the real issue
with reversing the traditional 'who leaves campus' roles is that POC
[people of color] on campus won't object to a day without all the
annoying white people around and will gladly leave, while white folks
will object and throw temper tantrums at the mere suggestion that they
give up their traditional space for just one day."
‘The Right to Say What He Wants’
Bridges (right), the president of Evergreen State, said in an interview
Friday that it was important to remember that the Day of Absence was
voluntary, and that no white people were forced to participate. He also
said he believed that the campus was safe, and that there was a mistaken
assumption among many that the protesters were in control of the campus.
Bridges said that Weinstein's right to speak out has never been
threatened and that his job is not in danger. "He has the right to say
what he wants," Bridges said. (Evergreen State does not have a
traditional tenure system but does have a similar system under which
Weinstein is covered.)
In a meeting with students late Friday, Bridges rejected demands that
Weinstein and some police officers be fired, saying that the college
does not respond to demands that employees be fired. But he announced a
number of steps that the college was taking, and he repeatedly praised
The start of mandatory diversity and cultural sensitivity training for
all faculty members. (This measure was adopted with the agreement of the
faculty union.)
The creation of an equity/multicultural center.
The hiring of a vice president or vice provost who will focus on equity
and diversity issues. (The search for this position had already been
started.)
Adoption of a new policy where every official event at the college will
start with an acknowledgment that Evergreen State is on land stolen from
Native Americans.
On Saturday, Bridges posted a statement in which he said it was
important for the college to make students feel secure and for faculty
members to feel that their rights to free expression were respected.
"Some students on campus experience racism that interferes with their
education. Others, including faculty, believe their freedom of
expression is being restricted," Bridges wrote. "These are important
issues. Discrimination of any form is not acceptable or tolerated on our
campus. Free speech must be fostered and encouraged. We are an
institution dedicated to learning. We must treat each other with respect
and care. Every faculty member, student and staff member must have the
freedom to speak openly about their views."
Bridges went on to say, "We may disagree with each other. However,
disagreement is one thing; dehumanization is another. Over the week, a
few members of the Evergreen community have used traditional and social
media to malign, mock or misrepresent those with whom they disagree.
While the majority of students, faculty and staff are fully engaged in
the teaching and learning work of the college, a few are on a
destructive course of action that hurts themselves and gives a distorted
and false impression of our community."
Both the student protest movement and Weinstein and his supporters say
they have been maligned in ways such as those Bridges cited. The
president did not include any names in his statement.
Weinstein said via email that the statement does not reassure him.
"The president's carefully crafted statement is clearly intended to
support a false narrative about the present state of our campus, and the
extraordinary events of this past week," he said. "No one at the college
has yet acknowledged that I and my students were specifically followed,
harassed and doxed. If it is now safe to return, it is only because the
intimidation campaign against us backfired so spectacularly and has now
been called off as a matter of PR damage control."
Read more by Scott Jaschik
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/05/30/escalating-debate-race-evergreen-state-students-demand-firing-professor
Comments include
ChrisTS • 2 days ago
I am an old liberal, and I have adapted to most of the newer
liberal/leftist push for identity concerns (I was one of those ancient
"the Personal is political" feminists). I also recognize that young
people - well, many people of all ages - become impassioned and
overstep. But, sometimes stuff gets out of hand.

"Adoption of a new policy where every official event at the college will
start with an acknowledgment that Evergreen State is on land stolen from
Native Americans."

Is there anywhere is the U.S of which this is not true? Will it be a
meaningful announcement when almost all colleges/unis do this? And,
shouldn't we add a similar acknowledgement about slavery, the oppression
of women, the abuse of the first Irish and Italian immigrants, and/or
the abuse of whatever group was not representative of the then dominant
religion?* At some point, the disclaimers will outrun the planned events.

*I realize that certain areas have their own 'worst' histories, but
there is no place in the U.S. that was not built on the backs of
indigenous peoples.
36 •Share ›
Avatar
AssociateProfessor ChrisTS • 2 days ago
Perhaps we shouldn't apologize for the past, but look toward the future?
29 •Share ›
Avatar
Orson_Buggeigh AssociateProfessor • 2 days ago
The most sensible comment yet. Thank you.
6 •Share ›
Avatar
ChrisTS AssociateProfessor • 2 days ago
I think 'we' should do both, as circumstances demand, but not as a
meaningless *mea culpa*.

Good grief, why can we not have some basic font options on IHE?
14 •Share ›
Avatar
college faculty AssociateProfessor • 2 days ago
The word apology is so meaningless to many of those who might offer it.
Instead rather than the common occurrence of trying to ignore the past
like it didn't happen then wonder why people are upset and haven't
'moved on' simply because you have... how about acknowledging the wrongs
of the past, and taking actual steps to education others about those
wrongs so that they do not happen again.

The massive theft of native lands has never been accounted for. The
holocaust of native deaths has never been acknowledged, because America
cannot accept the facts that thousands of people died to make way for
'manifest destiny.' We need to mature as a nation to recognize our
flaws, and build a future together.
6 •Share ›
Avatar
Neopragmatist college faculty • 2 days ago
What do you mean by "accounted for", "acknowledged", and "recognize"? Be
specific. Because, for example, American history pedagogy (outside like
Texas or whatever) *especially at the university level* (which is the
relevant context here, since we're talking about university policy) is
absolutely upfront with America's colonialist, genocidal past. It isn't
as if our history textbooks and college courses pretend that we didn't
do any of it, nor do they ignore it and focus on the whitewashed
versions. I simply have no idea what you mean when you insist that no
"actual steps to education [sic] others" have been taken. What are you
looking for exactly?
5 •Share ›
Avatar
Bob college faculty • 2 days ago
Forgive me for not feeling overly guilty about the "theft of native
lands" since our ancestors played by the same rules as every other
culture. From the Navajo tribe's official website:

“Wherever [the Navajo a/k/a Dineh’] went — until the white people
subdued them — the Dineh’ like the Mongols, were raiders and spoilers.
The mystery of the vanished Cliff-Dwellers [the Anasazi] is a mystery no
longer when we know the nature of the warriors who came among them. The
Zuñis told [General] Cushing that twenty-two different tribes had been
wiped out by the Enemy people, as they called [the Navajo]; and the
walled-up doors of proud Pueblo Bonito testify mutely to the fears of
its inhabitants.” (Dane Coolidge 1930)

http://navajopeople.org/blo...
8 •Share ›
Avatar
Frank P. Tomasulo, Ph.D. college faculty • 2 days ago
Are you advocating returning the lands to the Native Americans? After
all, those "treaties" they signed were signed under the gun. Wouldn't
this be the next logical step?

While we're at it, let's re-divide Europe, Africa, and especially the
Middle East. Give it all back to the Cro-Magnons. :-)

As Forrest Gump used to say, "[Conquests] happen."
4 •Share ›
Avatar
RPJ college faculty • a day ago
Considering I teach it several times a year from middle school to high
school, perhaps you needed to pay more attention in your secondary
history classes?
•Share ›
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Shawna AssociateProfessor • 2 days ago
Prof Weinstein deserves a special medal for academic courage and a pay
boost for intellectual honesty.

The snarling cabal that threatened him should be held up for ridicule
and denunciation.

That the university president is so disingenuous and weak in integrity
suggests he has a bright academic career ahead of him.

6 •Share ›
Avatar
Benito Camela AssociateProfessor • 2 days ago
Nobody has ever apologized for the past, or not willingly and in a
contemporaneous fashion, anyway. When will all the Native American lands
stolen and obtained under broken or ignored treaties be returned or the
tribes compensated?
1 •Share ›
Avatar
hydrangean ChrisTS • 2 days ago
This is actually a very common practice in B.C. and I believe it's also
done in parts of Australia. If the policy is enacted in the way it is in
Canada, it won't be a blanket statement that "Native Americans lived
here and our ancestors committed genocide." It will name the specific
nations who have traditional ties to the land and might include other
actions such as mentioning Indigenous names for the land, inviting
elders to speak or give traditional greetings, etc.

It serves multiple purposes: 1) to remind us of exactly which nations,
by name, have traditional ties to the land we operate on 2) to remind us
that the process of colonization and decolonization is ongoing and that
there are a lot of issues being hashed out, including legal issues,
right now on the land, 3) where appropriate, to thank the nation for
permitting us to share the land with them, and 4) to strengthen
institutional ties with Indigenous people.

Most settlers don't even know the names of the nations whose traditional
land they are living on--I certainly didn't before an Indigenous
activist suggested I should. Sometimes it can feel a little
lip-servicey, but for each person who's heard what we call the
"acknowledgement of territory" a hundred times there might be another
person who's never even heard the proper endonym of the nation before,
and that's the kind of thing worth knowing. Hope this helps :)
9 •Share ›
Avatar
witchwitchwitch hydrangean • 2 days ago
I lived in Australia for a while as a child. They definitely have a long
ways to go, but the little steps like these you've mentioned are
actually extremely helpful and provide great context for children to
learn. They also "celebrate" Sorry Day or the Day of Mourning to
officially acknowledge oppression of indigenous groups by the government.
4 •Share ›
Avatar
GWMill witchwitchwitch • 2 days ago
I wouldn't celebrate Australia just yet...their long way to go is likely
further than our long way to go. Indigenous Australians didn't become
citizens until 50 years ago, and the stats for them on life expectancy,
deaths in custody, and pretty much everything else you can imagine are
at least as bad, if not worse, than those for Native Americans. Native
Americans suffer all sorts of structural problems associated with past
prejudice and discrimination, but nowadays, I think you'd be fairly
hard-pressed to find people who actually feel current prejudice against
Native Americans. The same cannot be said of indigenous Australians.
•Share ›
Avatar
witchwitchwitch GWMill • 2 days ago
I'm not really sure what your point is other than to reiterate my
statement that Australia "definitely has a long ways to go".

I also think you should check yourself regarding the "barely any current
prejudice against Native Americans" comment.
2 •Share ›
Avatar
GWMill witchwitchwitch • 2 days ago
The original comment seemed to suggest that Australia, as a country, was
advanced in this issue...which really isn't true. If that wasn't the
intent, sorry. As for the prejudice and Native Americans now. My
students know all the negative stereotypes about, say, African
Americans. They may be vaguely horrified or embarrassed by them, but
they are there, and kids know them. They don't know the old stereotypes
about NAs. I just don't think it's a prejudice that continues to be
transmitted even though the apparatus of past discrimination is still
horrible. Actually, it's the negative stereotypes that are pretty much
dying out...the whole Disney Pocahontas tree-hugging stereotype is alive
and well.
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witchwitchwitch GWMill • 2 days ago
No I think it's extremely valuable to remember that small steps (in this
case by the Australian government) can be celebrated but shouldn't deter
us from the bigger picture. You're definitely right that in a lot of
places the negative stereotypes of Native Americans have given way to
incorrect but generally benign ones, but especially in the south west
they are still victims of hate crimes and considerably more likely to be
killed by someone of a different race than most other racial groups in
America.
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TinkerTailor1620 GWMill • a day ago
You obviously don't live around any of the Indian territories or
reservations in the U.S. and don't have any Indian friends or you
wouldn't have made the comment you made in your next-to-last sentence.
You'd be able to find plenty of people who are prejudiced against
'Native Americans' in those areas.
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mb ChrisTS • 2 days ago
If you look anywhere in the world you will find that the current
occupants have displaced previous occupants. This is one of the very
basics of human nature.

For example, in Europe what is now Germany was not always occupied by
present "Germans." Great Britain? Same thing. In Africa, the composition
of current ethnic groups does not reflect the historical record. Same
for the Middle East, Asia, even the Americas. What is now Apache land
was once Anasazi, Hopi, Pueblo, etc.* There was much infighting, war,
displacement, etc. - "theft" if you will - among the First Nations
peoples of the New World.

Thus, at least to me, to try and limit this call to atone for "stealing
land" to the white population of the U.S. is disingenuous. Running
people off their land to take over their natural resources is as old as
Homo sapiens. IMHO we spend far too much time looking to the past to
justify current prejudices. On this, I agree with Associate Professor:
It's time to either abandon the 'grievance industries' and look ahead or
just throw in the towel and accept civil war. I strongly advocate for
the former.

*I may have the exact histories of the ethnicities incorrect, but you
get the idea.
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GWMill mb • 2 days ago
It is certainly not limiting the call to the white population of the US.
There is a global indigenous political movement.

You argue that just because people have always done something then we
shouldn't object to it or try to alleviate the pain caused by it. Men
have always beaten their wives, too...would you make the same argument
that we should just give up trying to alleviate the pain of domestic
violence...no need to say "sorry" or anything?
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mb GWMill • 2 days ago
My reply addresses this paragraph by ChrisT:
"Is there anywhere is the U.S of which [...the ground that Evergreen
Sate is on was stolen from Native Americans] is not true? Will it be a
meaningful announcement when almost all colleges/unis do this? And,
shouldn't we add a similar acknowledgement about slavery, the oppression
of women, the abuse of the first Irish and Italian immigrants, and/or
the abuse of whatever group was not representative of the then dominant
religion?* At some point, the disclaimers will outrun the planned events.

Did you not read that? Sh/e clearly is talking about the U.S.
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GWMill mb • 2 days ago
Yes, but the following: "Thus, at least to me, to try and limit this
call to atone for "stealing
land" to the white population of the U.S. is disingenuous..." implies a
lack of awareness that, in fact, in multiple countries, there are
similar calls for acknowledgement of indigenous history. Why ChrisT is
talking about the US, your comment implies that only in the US is there
an indigenous politics, and that's not actually true.
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Frank P. Tomasulo, Ph.D. GWMill • 2 days ago
I believe that U.S, presidents have apologized for the rape of Indians
and their land. Does this mean that every university and dry-cleaning
establishment has to post a sign or plaque apologizing for these
long-ago events?
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GWMill Frank P. Tomasulo, Ph.D. • 2 days ago
No, I don't actually. Posting a sign and making a ritual apology sounds
pretty insincere to me, so why bother? On the other hand, conversations
about reparations are another matter...
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CCHistory Prof mb • 2 days ago
In the cases of Northwest tribes, though, it often was stolen from them.
Tribes would sign treaties specifying certain plots of land reserved for
them, only to have those treaties arbitrarily disregarded or abrogated a
few years later.

I'm not sure if Evergreen State resides on any of that particular land.
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Frank P. Tomasulo, Ph.D. CCHistory Prof • 2 days ago
These folks don't really care if the Evergreen State land was Native
soil or just unclaimed wilderness. Their "P.C." point has to be made,
since they probably just took a basic course in Am. History for the
first time.
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sonotamused mb • 2 days ago
I think you have somewhat ignored the fact that as you write this there
are not Goths living in Europe, wondering why everyone else continues to
insist that "this land is our land."

This is a normal occurance for those that are part of the indigenous
movement.
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CCHistory Prof ChrisTS • 2 days ago
"Is there anywhere is the U.S of which this is not true?"

Sure. The Natives were not everywhere and did not claim everything in
North America. In a lot of cases they voluntarily sold land, although
they often thought that sale would be the end of Anglo-settler expansion
& were dismayed to find it wasn't.
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dunkertim ChrisTS • 2 days ago
And how far back should our apologies go? There was tribal warfare long
before the Americas were visited by Europeans. Entire tribes were killed
and displaced by other tribes. Our history of violence and encroachment
didn't start in the past 500 years. I say if you go back 200 years, you
can go back 2,000 years. We should all apologize to each other, then get
on with more productive exercises.
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Peter Chrzanowski ChrisTS • 2 days ago
"Is there anywhere is the U.S of which this is not true?"

A better question: is there anyone, anywhere on this planet who is not
living on land that at some time was controlled by a different tribe or
nation?

Or is the reality that every piece of real estate (yes, including the
Americas) is land that has been taken and re-taken over and over again,
by whoever had the strength to take it?

Have these academics ever heard of "irredentism," and have they any
conception of the extent to which it promotes never-ending wars, wars
which can never end because there will always be someone making some new
claims of prior possession and who have (or think they have) the means
to recover their "lost" lands?
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swoogie 1 ChrisTS • 2 days ago
They should announce that the university is closing and all the land
will be returned to native tribes. The facilities will be turned over to
the tribes as restitution. The government will no longer subsidize the
property or the students. We wish the students well in finding a school
that fits their needs.
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stannadel • 2 days ago
Political correctness out of control & leading to thuggery with the
Evergreen State president taking a wimpy stand rather than clearly
defending the attacked professor.
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Sean stannadel • 2 days ago
I love a good protest and I think students who have been marginalized
historically have much ground to make up. But I think what we're seeing
at Evergreen State is a clear case of PC run amok. Sheesh!
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ChrisTS Sean • 2 days ago
I upvoted this despite thinking the whole 'PC' critique has become
vacuous and inane.
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chizwoz ChrisTS • 2 days ago
The concept is vacuous and inane. What else could the critique be?
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chizwoz Sean • 2 days ago
They're 20 years old. They didn't exist historically. These grievances
have been indoctrinated into them for political gain of others.
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frodo chizwoz • 2 days ago
First, some of these students do come from historically marginalized
groups, and that marginalization does have lasting effects.

Second, whose gains? Sometimes, it's simpler to see such misguided
protests as coming for overenthusiastic and not-yet very reflective
young people taking things too far.
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Frank P. Tomasulo, Ph.D. frodo • 2 days ago
My mom used to say, "Sticks and stones..." (You know the rest.)

Granted, "historically marginalized groups" have suffered and there are
SOME lasting effects. Does that mean that freedom of speech and academic
freedom must be curtailed over mere WORDS, no matter how derogatory?
Does it mean that this biology professor has to cancel his class and get
off campus because "historically marginalized groups" were victimized
long ago (and a little bit today)?

I've fought almost my whole life (since I was 10 years old and read THE
COMMUNIST MANIFESTO and Gunnar Myrdal's AMERICAN DILEMMA) for minority
rights, but these latest escapades are ridiculous and even the
"snowflakes'" defenders claim that they are "misguided ...
overenthusiastic and not-yet very reflective young people taking things
too far."

They go SO far that they threaten the livelihood and reputation of a
prof who basically agrees with them. When I go "too far" (like using the
term "'hood" at CCNY), I lose my job; what will happen to these students
for disrupting a class?
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DieselChadron frodo • 2 days ago
If I were to render a guess at who gains from this state of race
paranoia, I would say the left. I believe I've seen some stats which
indicate a huge difference between the number of blacks voting dem vs
rep. However, more than that, I'd say there is a balkanization of the
USA in progress. The nation isn't being fragmented in terms of physical
borders, but, I'd say in the collective mind, there are many "fault
lines" amongst the very diverse population that really do not need to be
there and even seem contrived at this point.
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Frank P. Tomasulo, Ph.D. chizwoz • 2 days ago
You betcha! They must have been "shocked, shocked" (Cf. CASABLANCA) to
learn that Native Americans and blacks had been abused before they were
born -- and those groups still suffer "MICRO-aggressions" in
universities and in the naming of football teams. Maybe they just
learned these historical facts when they reached college, or maybe
during the Time-Out Day or through mandatory sensitivity training.

The remedy: Shut down the classroom of a progressive professor or bull
horn a heckler's veto when a speaker deviates from the "P.C." dogma.
"That's the ticket" (Jon Lovitz, SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE).

For the millennials on this thread, my Irony is intended. :-)
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TinkerTailor1620 Frank P. Tomasulo, Ph.D. • a day ago
upvote for the Jon Lovitz reference!
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George Avery stannadel • 2 days ago
It is time for University administrators to clamp down on the
neo-Fascists leading the diversity movement protests.
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Joseph Afsoq George Avery • 2 days ago
First you have to have a backbone.
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SoIncredulous Joseph Afsoq • 2 days ago
And that is quickly being 'bred' out of college leadership. President
Bridges' statement is a vacuous, vanilla statement that says nothing. Is
this an example of 'leadership' on campus?
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MichaelinIowa SoIncredulous • 2 days ago
You need llook no further than U of Missouri enrollment to see what
happens when you fail to take a principled stand.
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Mark Jackson MichaelinIowa • 2 days ago
The difference with the University of Missouri is that the students
engaging in a "day of absence" were division 1 football players, and the
day was game day.
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TinkerTailor1620 • 2 days ago
As ChrisTS pointed out, some of the demands and issues raised are nearly
irrational, and there are so many of them, that it seems to distract
from what the students are really trying to accomplish here. Colleges
are just like college students or anyone else - at best they can only
latch onto and remember 3 to maybe 5 key things out of a major
demonstration like this. When you're talking about the public, 3 is
going to be the maximum. When they have so many demands and so many are
just off the charts wild or odd, it makes them all seem trivial.

The personal attacks on this one professor seem just out of orbit, too.
I can understand them being frustrated with him not cooperating with
their Day of Absence, but they just gave him a huge platform by pointing
him out to everyone. They would have been better off to have just walked
right by his classroom and not poking the bear.
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FiscalCon TinkerTailor1620 • 2 days ago
Trying to reason with the mob? It will be as successful as the president
of the university. You can pander to it, like he is doing or confront
them (close down the campus for a week or two and start making arrests).
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George Avery FiscalCon • 2 days ago
Half the problems in academia today date to the willingness of 1960s
Presidents to cave to radical protests.
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Benito Camela George Avery • 2 days ago
Please name some of these problems, of which half can be attributed to
the protests in the 1960s against segregation/discrimination/murder or
an illegal war based on lies in Southeast Asia and the silencing of
anti-war media voices? Inquiring minds want to know what all these
problems might be.
Bill Shatzer
2017-06-02 03:20:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Who Defines What Is Racist?
Students demand firing of Evergreen State professor.
Police chief urges him to stay off campus for his safety.
Supporters say he’s the one upholding principles of equity.
By Scott Jaschik
May 30, 2017
In the heated debates of campus politics these days, it is not unusual
for some groups (on or off campus) to demand the firing of a faculty
member. But the rancor at Evergreen State College over the last week
stands out. There, a professor whom some students want fired was told by
the campus police chief that, out of concern for his safety, he should
stay off campus for a few days. He did, teaching a class nearby in
Olympia, Wash., and is not sure when he can return to campus.
- ship -

It's good to see that Evergreen students haven't lost their moxie.

In the old days, i.e my days, Evergreen was referred as Berkeley North.
Great to see the old traditions still being upheld.

peace and justice,
None of the Above
2017-06-02 07:33:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by a425couple
Who Defines What Is Racist?
Students demand firing of Evergreen State professor.
Police chief urges him to stay off campus for his safety.
Supporters say he’s the one upholding principles of equity.
By Scott Jaschik
May 30, 2017
In the heated debates of campus politics these days, it is not unusual
for some groups (on or off campus) to demand the firing of a faculty
member. But the rancor at Evergreen State College over the last week
stands out. There, a professor whom some students want fired was told by
the campus police chief that, out of concern for his safety, he should
stay off campus for a few days. He did, teaching a class nearby in
Olympia, Wash., and is not sure when he can return to campus.
- ship -
It's good to see that Evergreen students haven't lost their moxie.
...just their f*cking minds...
Post by Bill Shatzer
In the old days, i.e my days, Evergreen was referred as Berkeley North.
Great to see the old traditions still being upheld.
Were you on the bulldozer wrestling team?
Curt Portland
2017-06-02 15:55:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Shatzer
In the old days, i.e my days, Evergreen was referred as Berkeley North.
Great to see the old traditions still being upheld.
peace and justice,
You miserable treasonous VERMIN!


I'm always reminded of YOUR very *special personal sentiments* regarding
the attacks of 911, Bill:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.

It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


I think we can ALL do well to reflect on what kind of sick sociopath
would come up with those words in honor of 911...


Oh and let's add in your naked death threat against the President:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyone else notice the similarities between Trump's attacks on the
"lying media" and "fake news" and the Nazi smear campaign against the
"Lugenpresse"?

You can, as they say, look it up.

This man must be stopped - peacefully if possible, otherwise if necessary.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


You'd best have some slick lawyering talk for the Secret Service when
they pay you a visit, Shitzie!
Curt Portland
2017-06-02 23:10:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Shatzer
In the old days, i.e my days,
I'm always reminded of YOUR very *special personal sentiments* regarding
the attacks of 911, Bill:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.

It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


I think we can ALL do well to reflect on what kind of sick sociopath
would come up with those words in honor of 911...


Oh and let's add in your death threat against the President:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyone else notice the similarities between Trump's attacks on the
"lying media" and "fake news" and the Nazi smear campaign against the
"Lugenpresse"?

You can, as they say, look it up.

This man must be stopped - peacefully if possible, otherwise if necessary.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


You'd best have some slick lawyering talk for secret Service when they
pay you a visit, Shitzie!
Rudy Canoza
2017-06-03 00:12:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by a425couple
Who Defines What Is Racist?
Students demand firing of Evergreen State professor.
Police chief urges him to stay off campus for his safety.
Supporters say he’s the one upholding principles of equity.
By Scott Jaschik
May 30, 2017
In the heated debates of campus politics these days, it is not unusual
for some groups (on or off campus) to demand the firing of a faculty
member. But the rancor at Evergreen State College over the last week
stands out. There, a professor whom some students want fired was told by
the campus police chief that, out of concern for his safety, he should
stay off campus for a few days. He did, teaching a class nearby in
Olympia, Wash., and is not sure when he can return to campus.
- ship -
It's good to see that Evergreen students haven't lost their moxie.
They're punks and thugs. They should be expelled.

liberty and property,
Curt Portland
2017-06-03 04:04:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Sort of an early form of water boarding.
I'm always reminded of YOUR very *special personal sentiments* regarding
the attacks of 911, Bill:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.

It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


I think we can ALL do well to reflect on what kind of sick sociopath
would come up with those words in honor of 911...


Oh and let's add in your death threat against the President:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyone else notice the similarities between Trump's attacks on the
"lying media" and "fake news" and the Nazi smear campaign against the
"Lugenpresse"?

You can, as they say, look it up.

This man must be stopped - peacefully if possible, otherwise if necessary.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


You'd best have some slick lawyering talk for secret Service when they
pay you a visit, Shitzie!
Curt Portland
2017-06-05 14:23:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Folks are free to be as illogical as they might desire
I'm always reminded of YOUR very *special personal sentiments* regarding
the attacks of 911, Bill:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.

It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


I think we can ALL do well to reflect on what kind of sick sociopath
would come up with those words in honor of 911...


Oh and let's add in your death threat against the President:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyone else notice the similarities between Trump's attacks on the
"lying media" and "fake news" and the Nazi smear campaign against the
"Lugenpresse"?

You can, as they say, look it up.

This man must be stopped - peacefully if possible, otherwise if necessary.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


You'd best have some slick lawyering talk for secret Service when they
pay you a visit, Shitzie! se
Curt Portland
2017-06-08 14:27:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
I'm signing off on this thread - you may have the last word if you are
so desirous.
peace and justice
I'm always reminded of YOUR very *special personal sentiments* regarding
the attacks of 911, Bill:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure
You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.

It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


I think we can ALL do well to reflect on what kind of sick sociopath
would come up with those words in honor of 911...


Oh and let's add in your death threat against the President:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyone else notice the similarities between Trump's attacks on the
"lying media" and "fake news" and the Nazi smear campaign against the
"Lugenpresse"?

You can, as they say, look it up.

This man must be stopped - peacefully if possible, otherwise if necessary.
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